Witness to a Heretic --conversation with a grass-root theologian

The original story is written by Guo Yukuan. Translated by me, edited by Robert Berold.

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I went to the village to do field research with the local CCPPCC (Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference) and friends from the Poverty Alleviation bureau. My initial research objective was to get an idea of how the 'forest restoration from farmland' project was going. When I was in Qunming, people told me that there were quite a few bewitched pseudo-religious cult followers who deliberately acted against the government. After having arrived in Wuding, the local people told me that there were many disciples of this 'off-mainstream religion', and that they were very stubborn. However, most of the local people said those 'off-mainstream religion' followers were not bad people, for they didn't do anything bad; they are just too obstinate to change their minds when they ought to, and some people call them 'nutters'.

This intrigued me greatly. People told me about the nutters' glorious achievements, which,on first hearing, were hard to believe. According to one story, the provincial governor took charge of some of impoverished ethnic villages in the deep forest in order to alleviate poverty there, but the nutters didn't cooperate. They didn't want to develop the economy. They never set foot on the roads that the government built. They never drank a drop of the tap water that the government installed at their homes, instead, they carried on as before, walking down the hill and carrying water up on their shoulders. That reminded me of the Amish people in the US.

Early in the morning we left Wuding by jeep. For about one and half an hour we were bumping along a muddy road. Finally we came to a place called "Leech Bamboo". It was a Miao ethnic village on the top of a mountain. Its name reminded us of the idiom "poor mountain and devilish water". The conditions for irrigation there were poor indeed. The only cropland was on the top, and even there one could only grow some wheat and barley at the mercy of weather. There were no tall trees except for some dwarf pines only as high as a child.

Obviously, the "forest restoration from farmland" project hadn't brought any benefit to the village. It was hard to imagine why would people choose such a place to live. How did they manage to make a living? I thought about how this related to the name of "Wuding" (meaning "peace after military suppression"), and I guessed that these people were the descendants of the Miao, who, after military suppression after being defeated in the historical war with the Han, were forced into the deep forest.

In "Leech Bamboo", I met the legendary leader of the "off-mainstream religion" Zhang Zhimin. Friends from the local Chinese Christian church (full name Chinese Christian Church Three-self Protestant Movement, a government-controlled church) called Zhang and his people "heaven-attained", for they claimed to have realized the heaven on earth. Compared with those who described it as a pseudo-religious cult, this nickname was not vicious, perhaps just a little derisive. The official statistics by the government said there were 51 "heaven-attained" members, but the actual number was larger. Since Zhang Zhimin had a reputation for his indifference to officials from outside, my friends were not sure whether he was willing to talk to me or not.

The moment I saw him working in the field, I was quite shocked. He was small, dark-skinned and thin. He looked like a man with many stories. Although covered in tattered clothes, he had an air of dignity and decency. He rubbed his hands against his clothes, and shook hands with me humbly, but he sized me up as if he was my superior. He stared at me for about half a minute, and asked me before I even said anything: 'What is it you want to know?' Then he said, 'Follow me.'

He led me to a flat area on the top of the hill. We sat down on the ground. The village director, Zhang Zhihui and my friends from the government all sat down 7 or 8 meters away. Zhang Zhimin didn't regard himself as a religious leader, but apparently the villagers all respected him. The village director was as humble as a student in front of him.

Zhang had great confidence in his religious belief. Despite never having been to school, and being so illiterate that he could not even write his own name, he had learned the Bible mainly by letting people read it to him. He had memorized the Bible on first hearing and he had an outstanding ability to recite and chant it paragraph by paragraph.

We chatted for about 2 hours. I had to admit that after talking with him, I wouldn't call him a "nutter" any more. Rather, I had full respect for him. Though he had received little education, Zhang had the compassion of Martin Luther, and was something of an intellectual genius.


Later my friend who was there with me told me in privacy that they had met Zhang Zhimin many times, and always thought he was just a crazy old man, but today he had heard Zhang talk more sensibly than he had ever heard before.

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Guo: I've heard that you call yourself a Christian, but at the same time you don't recognize the authority of the Chinese Christian Church. How could it be? When did all this start?

Zhang: I've been a Christian since I was a little boy. During the Cultural Revolution, all the Christians here were oppressed. But later we could show our belief in public. Since the 1980s, I started studying history, astronomy and geography all by myself and formed some thoughts of my own. Then I gradually distanced myself from the Chinese Christian Church because of my different views.

Guo: What is the fundamental difference between your view and the view of the Chinese Christian Church?


Zhang: Some of their views seem like superstition. I don't think there is a heaven up in the sky. Heaven is built by people. I believe Jesus Christ was born on earth. He was a human being just as we are. He was enlightened, but he was not sent by God. And I don't think what's said in the Bible is true in real life, like "the moon shall fade; the sun shall fall". I don't think this is what the Bible was about originally. Also the claim that man will be resurrected, that doesn't make sense. If people resurrected, the earth would be overpopulated.


Guo: But isn't it contradictory that on the one hand, you call yourself a christian, but on the other, you doubt the Bible?

Zhang: I studied the Bible for its philosophical, scientific and spiritual sense. I understand the Bible, while those who claim they can recite the Bible word by word don't understand it at all. Several years ago, the Chinese Christian Church organized for us to visit them. They did this with the best intention, because they thought that we had lived in the mountains too long to know what was going on in the outside world, where there were many high buildings that I'd never seen in my life. In Shanghai, I met a theology professor. But I don't think many of his interpretations of the Bible were profound. He told me that the christian heaven is more glorious than the most beautiful country in the world. I didn't contradict him, but I knew he was wrong even he was a professor in a high position.

Guo: Everybody has his own understanding of the Christianity. Everybody may have a god of his own. Why did you have to separate yourself from the Chinese Christian Church?


Zhang: The Church saw us as nonconformists. Well, we don't argue with that. We don't obey the regulations set by the church. Choir, weekly prayer, sabbath, holy communion, baptism, we do none of them.

Guo: A religion surely requires both ceremonial rituals without and spiritual experience within. Why would you go against all these rituals?

Zhang: When those superficial forms become the standards by which one group criticizes the other, then isn't that group the same as the Pharisees? Jesus Christ detested this hypocrisy. Every Sunday I have to go to the market. I can't rest on that day. The Chinese Church has a lot of useless rules, including saying you have to endorse the government and the party's leadership. This is not very christian. A real christian doesn't act like that. The Christian Philadelphia Church revolted when they had to, Abraham didn't obey his father, David didn't obey Saul; Jesus didn't obey Moses; Martin Luther didn't obey the Pope. What christians should follow is the call from their own hearts, not Caesar's laws. So a christian like me is different from those in the church.

Guo: Did you feel the call from your heart then?


Zhang: Yes, I did feel a call, the call from Wang Zhimin.

Guo: Who's Wang Zhimin?

Zhang: He used to be the clergyman here. He was doing good all his life, and was loved by the poor people of Miao ethnicity. But after 1949 the Communist Party oppressed him, because he refused to salute Mao's portrait, and also refused to report his own thoughts to the party leaders. It's not that he was against the party, but he considered it a pseudo-religious cult if it forced people to believe in it. No matter how they threatened him, beat him or threw him into jail, he insisted that he would not worship idols. Wang Zhimin was beaten to death in the Rultural Revolution by the Communist Party on the false charge that he once led a militia group and killed seven Red Army soldiers. In fact, he wasn't involved in that incident at all. His assisstant Zhang Zhiqing was also tortured to death in jail. Wang was a prophet who suffered because of people's stupidity. He's a real christian. Now he is resurrected, not in his body, but in his spirit that relives in me. I felt his call, so I decided to carry his spirit on.


Guo: But today is different from yesterday. Those extreme actions taken in Mao's time are even self-criticized by members of the Communist Party today. To my knowledge, don't the christians have the practice of forgiveness? I heard that the government came here to alleviate poverty, but you refused to take their support. Why? Isn't that a bit extreme?

Zhang: They don't feel any remorse. Instead, they make propaganda about how glorious, how correct, and how great they are. I swore in my heart by the blood of Wang Zhimin for which they are responsible, that I would never cooperate with them unless they admitted their guilt.

Guo: But you still live in Chinese society after all, how can that be possible if you don't cooperate?


Zhang: We refuse to pay taxes, and don't want anything from the government. In the old days, the government suppressed the farmers heavily. They never did anything good for us. They would demand tax payment even when we killed a pig. They were no better than a bunch of bandits. So we decided that we wouldn't pay taxes. The officials didn't dare to bother me, but they took away the pigs and oxen belonging to my brothers, and tore down their houses. We didn't rebel, because we don't like violence. We don't believe that fighting is ever a solution. Nevertheless, we don't pay taxes to the government. We tried to reason with them, but they never listened. We just had to tolerate and pray.

Guo: If this continues, there will be clashes sooner or later, won't there?


Zhang: There have never been clashes. We don't want clashes. However, there was one widely-known incident. It happened in 1992. My son went to the mountain for firewood and the village director with his followers came after him, burned my horse cart. We went to the provincial government to protest by sitting peacefully there. If they had detained any of us, we would have gone to jail together. Finally the government apologized, and refunded me a horse cart.

Guo: Why didn't you accept their help when the government came to help you out of poverty? Isn't it a good thing to improve your life?

Zhang: We are the children of heaven on earth. We work hard and care for each other in brotherhood and sisterhood. Though we don't live in high buildings, we enjoy our peace and freedom. We don't want to be enslaved by the government, or their pity. (For that reason, the local people called them the "heaven-attained" group)

Guo: I heard that you don't agree with the single child policy. I think your disagreement makes a sense for your poor living conditions here.

Zhang: We don't accept any laws made by the Communist Party. We only go by our conscience. I opposed the single birth law in the past, because a child is a gift from God. But now I realize that too much population is not a good thing. We would run out of land if there were too many people. So we' re willing to control our birth rate because of this awareness. It has nothing to do with the law.

Guo: I heard that some people from the Church describe you as a "off-mainstream religion". It sounds well-intentioned to call you that.

Zhnag: Because they are supported by the government, the Church has a great number of followers. They call us "off-mainstream"? That's ridiculous. God's eyes only see the difference between truth and falsehood, rather than the difference between mainstream and off-stream. Some officials even called us a cult. They are indeed the cult themselves.

Guo: Do you regard yourself as a religious leader of your village people?

Zhang: I don't care if I am or not. All I care is the peace and freedom of my conscience. I'd like to regard myself as a real christian.


Guo: Why would you stress that you're a real Christian?


Zhang: Many people hate me. They tried every way to prove that I'm crazy and say that what I preach are not christian tenets. They prevented people from contacting me. But I know what I am doing. Jesus says "Ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake". I'm willing to bear the brunt. So I'm a real christian.

Guo: Are there many people who still believe you?

Zhang: It's not a problem if there are many or few. Jesus only had a dozen disciples. I used to have over a thousand followers. Now many people have quit because they were in fear of the government's assaults and threats. I never tried to persuade them not to quit, because everybody has to follow their own hearts. What we love is the peace and freedom from our own hearts. That's our choice.

Guo: So you think there will be fewer people believing you from now?

Zhang: It doesn't matter. You can't assume that people gathering in the government's church understand God better just because there are more of them. Jesus says, "Wherever you are, I'm amongst you, as long as you gather together in my name".
 
 
*关于这篇文章的疑问：我只在牛博上看见了这篇文章（由civics转帖），去了原作者郭宇宽的博客，并无此文。
 
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异端的见证


------和一个草根神学家的对话

郭宇宽

我是和当地政协和扶贫办的朋友，一起下去考察的，那次的调研，我最初的目地是想了解退耕还林的效果。在昆明的时候，有人告诉我，在云南的深山之中，有不少走火入魔的邪教徒，专门和政府作对。到了武定以后，当地的人告诉我，那里有很多“小众教”信徒，非常顽固，但大多数当地人，都说这些“小众教信徒”也不是坏人，不做什么坏事，就是脑子比较钻牛角尖，有人说他们是“癫子”。这使我产生了很浓厚的兴趣。他们告诉了我，很多那些“癫子”的事迹，乍听来是匪夷所思的，深山之中的一些少数民族村非常之贫困，省长亲自抓,要给当地扶贫,他们都不理会，他们不要发展经济。政府给他们修路，他们不走；政府给他们装自来水，他们不喝，照旧下山挑水。这让我想起了美国的阿米绪人（Amish）。



清早从武定县城出发，越野吉普行驶了大约3个小时，其中一半以上的时间都没有硬化的土路上颠簸，来到了一个叫做“蚂蟥箐”的地方，这是一个山顶的苗族村寨，这个地名也让人想到所谓“穷山恶水”，灌溉条件非常恶劣，退耕还林政策显然并没有惠及这里，田地都在山顶上的，只能种些望天收的青稞小麦，甚至连高大的树木都没有，只有不及人高的“爬地松”。颇难想象人为什么会选择这个地方？又是如何在这样的环境中生存下来？联想到“武定”的地名，这大概就是历史上在民族战争中，受到镇压，而被驱赶向深山的苗人遗民后裔。

在这里我见到了传说中的“小众教领袖”张志民，当地三自爱国会的朋友称他们是“得国派”，当时政府认定的信徒有51个，但实际人数比这要大，这个说法相对于把他们当作邪教是比较善意的，但又含有些嘲弄，意指他们宣称在地上得到了天国。陪同的朋友，并没有把握他愿不愿意和我们交流，因为他以往经常对外面来的干部爱理不理的。

我见到他的时候，心中暗吃一惊，他当时正在田里劳作，矮小、黑瘦，看上去饱经风霜，衣服也是破旧的，但却有一股轩昂之气，他把手在衣服上擦了擦，和你握手，礼节是谦卑的，而打量人的目光给人感觉却好像是居高零下。他盯着我看了大概有半分钟，我还没有说什么 话，就问我，你想知道么？他说，你跟我来。

他领着我到了一处山顶的平地，席地坐了下起，陪同他的是村长张志辉，和我一起来的有政府背景的朋友，自觉地坐在了相距7、8米远的地方。张志民不承认自己是宗教领袖，但看得出村民都对他极为尊敬，村长在他面前都像学生一样谦虚，他对自己的信仰也非常的自信。更让我吃惊的是，张志民没有上过学，是个几乎不识字的文盲，写自己的名字都有些困难，他接触圣经，主要靠身边的人读给他听，但他却有过耳不忘的能力，和近乎神奇的理解，能够大段的背诵和引用圣经。

我们一起聊了大约两个小时，不得不承认，当我和他交流过后，我非但不认为他是一个“癫子”，相反对他有非常的敬意，虽然他没有受过什么教育，但却有着马丁路德那样的情怀，甚至是智性上的天才。

后来陪同我的朋友，私下跟我说，他们以前见过张志民多次，但都以为他是个疯老头，以前从来没有听他说过这样有条理的话。



郭：我听说你是自称是基督徒，但不承认我们国家基督教三自爱国会的权威，你为什么会这样？什么时候开始的？

张：我很小就是基督徒，文革时我们这里的基督徒都受到过很多的镇压，后来可以公开信仰了，从80年代开始，我自己研究历史、天文、地理有一些感悟，后来就在思想上开始和两会拉开距离。



郭：你的观念和三自爱国会有什么根本的区别么？

张：我觉得他们的有一些观念很像是迷信，我认为不存在所谓天上的天国，天国是人自己创造的；我认为耶稣是在地上出生的，他和我们一样是人，是有觉悟的人，不是天国派来的。

而且我不认为圣经讲的都要应验，比如“月亮要不亮，太阳要落下，”我觉得这些不是基督的本意，还有人要复活，这个我觉得也讲不通。假如这么多人都要复活，地球怎么能装得下。



郭：那你一方面说自己是基督徒，一方面对圣经还有所怀疑，这不是矛盾的么？

张：我学习圣经是从哲学、科学、精神上理解，我是真正的领会圣经，而那些口口声声一个字一句话背圣经的人根本都不理解圣经。前几年，有一次，三自爱国会的组织我们出去参观，他们也是好心，觉得我这样的住在山里，太闭塞了，外面有许多高楼大厦，确实是我过去没有见过的。我在上海遇见一个神学教授，我觉得很多地方他讲得水平并不高，他告诉我有一个天国比人间最美的国家还要荣耀一百倍，我不公开反驳他，可我知道，虽然他是教授，地位很高，可他说的不对。



郭：每个人对基督都可以有自己不同的理解，每个人可以有自己内心的上帝，但也用不着和三自爱国会完全分道扬镳啊。

张：他们觉得我们不守规矩，我们也不想和他们争辩，他们三自爱国会的基督徒要守的立法我不守，唱诗、做礼拜、安息日、圣餐、受洗，我统统不守。



郭：宗教都是要讲外在仪轨和内在体验的统一，你为什么要对这些宗教仪式，这么抵触呢？

张：些外表的形式后来变成判断批评别人的标准。这不就成了法利赛人吗？主耶稣是最不喜悦这种虚伪的态度的。礼拜六我要赶集，我不能像他们一样。三自爱国会无用的规矩特别多，还必须要爱政府，拥护党的领导，这不是基督徒的态度。真正的基督徒不是这个样子，非拉铁非教会[1]一样要起义；亚伯拉罕不听他父亲的；大卫不听扫罗的；耶稣不听摩西的；马丁路德不听当时教皇的，基督徒要听的是自己内心的召唤，而不是凯撒的律法，所以我这样的基督徒和他们不一样。



郭：那你感觉到了自己内心的召唤么？

张：我感觉到自己受到了一种召唤，是王志民[2]的召唤。



郭：王志民是谁？

张：他过去就是我们这里的牧师，最受我们这里贫苦的苗民热爱，他一辈子都在做好事。就因为他49年以后一直拒绝向毛泽东像敬礼，还有拒绝向共产党的干部汇报思想，共产党就迫害他，他并不是说仇恨共产党，但他认为不能逼迫别人去信仰，否则就是邪教。不管别人怎么威胁他，打他，关监狱，他都坚持，不能向偶像崇拜。王志民在文革中被共产党打死了，罪名是诬蔑他曾经带领队伍，打死过七个红军，其实和他根本没有关系，还有他的助手张志清在监狱里被虐待致死，王志民就是为人类的愚昧受难的先知，他是真正的基督徒。现在他复活了，不是他的肉身复活了，而是他的精神在我身上复活了，我感觉到了他的召唤，我就继承他的精神。



郭：毕竟今天的时代和过去有所不同了，毛泽东时代的那种极端做法，今天即使共产党内部多少也有所反省。我想，基督徒也应该有宽恕精神吧？我听说现在政府来扶贫，你们都不接受，何必呢？这也有些走极端了吧？

张：可他们没有认罪，还在宣称自己光荣正确伟大，我为了王志民的血债，我内心发誓，共产党只要不认罪，我就不再和共产党合作。



郭：可你毕竟生活在这个社会，不和政府合作怎么可能呢？

张：我们拒绝纳税也不要政府来管我们，[3]那时候，政府压迫农民特别厉害，他们从来没有给我们做过什么好事，但我们哪怕杀一头猪，他们都要来收税，和土匪一样。我们就宣布拒绝交税，政府不敢来找我，但是把我们一些兄弟家中的猪牛都牵走了，还拆他们的房子，我们并不反抗，因为我们不喜欢暴力，相信打不解决问题，但我们就是不向这个政府纳税，我们和他们讲道理，他们不听，我们只有忍耐和祈祷。



郭：这样迟早要爆发大冲突吧。

张：倒也没有什么大冲突，我们也不希望冲突，有一次影响比较大一点，是92年，我的儿子上山砍柴，结果乡长书记带人当着众人的面，把我的马车烧掉了，我们就到省政府门口静坐，他们要是抓我们的人，我们就一起去坐牢，最后政府知道理亏，赔了一辆马车给我。



郭：那为什么政府来扶贫，你们也不接受呢？帮你们改善生活总不是坏事吧？

张：我们是人间天国的子民，兄弟姐妹相互关爱，勤劳生活，我们虽然没有住在高楼大厦里，可我们享受良心的平安和自由，我们不要受政府的役使，也不要政府的任何施舍。（当地以此称之为“得国派”）



郭：听说你们还不认同计划生育政策，我觉得在你们这样的贫瘠的土地上还是有意义的。

张：我们不承认共产党的法律，我们只遵照自己的良心行事，原来我确实反对过计划生育，因为孩子是上天赐予的，不过现在我认识到人太多不好，否则我们的土地就不够了，这是我们兄弟姐妹的自觉意愿，但这和法律没有任何关系。



郭：我听有三自爱国会的人把你们称作“小众教”，我觉得这也还是比较善意的。

张：三自爱国会因为有政府支持，所以他们人多，就把我们称作“小众教”？这也太荒唐了。在神的眼中只有真理和谬误的区别，没有大众和小众的区别。甚至有的官员说我们是邪教，他们自己才是邪教呢。



郭：你觉得你自己在这些乡民中间，算不算一个宗教领袖？

张：我不在乎是不是什么宗教领袖，我只为了自己良心的平安和自由，我愿意说我是一个真正的基督徒。



郭：为什么要强调自己是真正的基督徒？

张：很多人恨我，千方百计地说我是疯子，说我讲的不是基督教，让老百姓都不要和我接触。但我知道我在做什么，耶稣说“你们要为我之名，被万民恨恶”，我愿意承受打击，所以我才是真正的基督徒。



郭：现在信你的人多么？

张：多少不是问题，耶稣也只有十几个门徒，我最多的时候有上千名信徒，现在在政府的打击和威胁下，很多人害怕都退出了，我们也从不劝阻，因为每个人的内心都属于他自己，我们热爱的就是内心的平安和自由，这是我们选择的。



郭：以后会不会信你的人越来越少？

张：多少都不要紧，不见得那些在政府办的大教堂里聚会的人多，就能认识主，因为耶稣说“无论在哪里,有两,三个人奉我的名聚会,那里就有我在他们中间。”



1.“非拉铁非”（PHILADELPHIA）原文是“弟兄之爱”，为历史上吕底亚(Lydia)名城，在今土耳其境内，纪元后十四

世纪，拜占庭时代，土耳其的回教军崛兴，占据全小亚西亚，毁灭所有基督教会，但非拉铁非蒙特恩，巍然独存。数百

年来，希腊教徒仍然能在该处保持基督徒的崇拜机会。土耳其政府以后改称之为“阿拉·城”（ALA SEHIR），即“神

的城”。

2.据询问当地两会的领导介绍：“王志民曾在撒普山教区当牧师，一直步行传道，曾劝阻工作队批斗地主，

在文革中坚持传教，受到政府的嫉恨，最后被扣上煽动群众枪杀红军的帽子枪毙，其实那是当年的苗民抗日团干的，

阻击了一个排的红军催粮队，后来起义这些人都进了政协，王志民和此事毫无关系，却被杀。”笔者向当地信教群众

了解，他们对王志民非常同情怀念。国内资料对王志民几乎没有任何记载，而查询Wang Zhiming,英文资料却颇多，

他是基督教历史被称作圣徒的人物。他1972年在万人公审大会上被杀，1998国圣公会为表彰二十世纪人类的正义奉献

牺牲精神，在威斯敏斯特教堂塑造了十位反抗极权主义、暴政和社会不公的基督教烈士的塑像，王志民在其中，并列

的还有人们熟悉的美国民权领袖马丁．路德金；挺身抵制纳粹政权的德国信义宗神学家及牧师，后以叛国罪被绞死的

潘霍华（Dietrich Bonhoeffer）。

3.据干部介绍，当地群众89年前抗议最多，曾去省政府前18次，去国务院2次静坐，后来不公开冲突，但始终不交税。

曾有一个小石桥村，省委书记令狐安亲自去蹲点，修路、通自来水、拉电线、修小学花了几十万，可他们只有两户人

用，宣称“共产党给的东西一概不要。”